ppy/OntoIOp-confcall_chat-transcript_20121017b.txt -------- Chat transcript from room: ontoiop_20121017 2012-10-17 GMT-08:00 (PDT) -------- [06:54] PeterYim: Welcome to the = OntoIOp Team conference call (n.20) - Wed 2012.10.17 = Date: Wednesday 17-Oct-2012 Start time: 7:00am PDT / 10:00 am EDT / 4:00pm CEST / 14:00 UTC ref. world clock - http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=10&day=17&year=2012&hour=7&min=0&sec=0&p1=224 Expected Duration: ~1.5 Hrs. Dial-in: Phone (US): +1 (206) 402-0100 ... (long distance cost may apply) ... [ backup number: (415) 671-4335 ] Skype: "joinconference" ... (generally free-of-charge, when connecting from your computer) when prompted enter "Conference ID" or PIN: 141184# In-session chat-space: http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/ontoiop_20121017 Shared-files workspace: http://interop.cim3.net/file/work/OntoIOp/Team_confcall/2012-10-17_team-confcall/ Remarks: * the session may be recorded for archival purposes. Unless otherwise documented, participants agrees to this by virtue of their participation at the session. * In case we have to mute everyone (due to extraneous noise or echo) - Mute control: *7 to un-mute ... *6 to mute * Can't find Skype Dial pad? ** for Windows Skype users: Can't find Skype Dial pad? ... it's under the "Call" dropdown menu as "Show Dial pad" ** for Linux Skype users: please stay with (or downgrade to) Skype version 2.x for now (as a Dial pad seems to be missing on Linux-based Skype v4.x for skype-calls.) -------- Attendees: TillMossakowski (chair), ChristophLange, MichaelGruninger, OliverKutz, PeterYim (scribe), StefanoBorgo, TerryLongstreth. -------- . == Agenda & Proceedings: == . [06:55] PeterYim: see today's agenda from Till at: http://interop.cim3.net/forum/ontoiop-wg/2012-10/msg00003.html [06:57] PeterYim: Hello Till [07:03] PeterYim: == Till starts the meeting ... [07:03] List of attendees: ChristophLange, MichaelGruninger, OliverKutz, PeterYim, StefanoBorgo, TerryLongstreth, TillMossakowski [07:04] PeterYim: on the call now: TillMossakowski (chair), ChristophLange, MichaelGruninger, OliverKutz, PeterYim, StefanoBorgo, TerryLongstreth [07:08] PeterYim: == discussing text of the rationale on a "freely available" ISO 17347 spec [07:10] PeterYim: suggesting we use "horizontal standard" (in quotes) as this was originally from SueEllenWright, and she has a specific connotation associated with this term [07:07] TerryLongstreth: ISO 17347 OntoIOp describes a "horizontal standard" computer language for bridging across languages described by other standards. It is not usable in a standalone way, because it focuses on a meta level. It enables other standards like Common Logic and OWL2 to be applied in a common setting, both individually and in an integrated way. In the long term, ISO 17347 OntoIOp will help to stabilize and consolidate ontologies across many disciplines.In the near term, it is unlikely that potential users of ISO 17347 OntoIOp will feel compelled to pay for this standard, since the current state of ontology usage is as standalone, non-interoperable applications. Interoperability can be fostered by mandating a monolithic language solution, which is a practical impossibility, or by providing an interoperability framework to apply jointly with other standards, most of which are already freely available. Hence, in order to achieve an impact,! ISO 17347 OntoIOp needs to be freely available even as are those other standards. This is of particular importance in order to gain enough early adopters and reach a critical mass of usage. Only then can the standard lead to economic benefits for companies using it. [07:08] TillMossakowski: ISO 17347 OntoIOp describes a computer language for bridging across languages described by other standards. It is not usable in a standalone way, because it focuses on a meta level. It is a "horizontal standard": it enables other standards like Common Logic and OWL2 to be applied in a common setting, both individually and in an integrated way. In the long term, ISO 17347 OntoIOp will help to stabilize and consolidate ontologies across many disciplines.In the near term, it is unlikely that potential users of ISO 17347 OntoIOp will feel compelled to pay for this standard, since the current state of ontology usage is as standalone, non-interoperable applications. Interoperability can be fostered by mandating a monolithic language solution, which is a practical impossibility, or by providing an interoperability framework to apply jointly with other standards, most of which are already freely available. Hence, in order to achieve an impact, ISO 17347 OntoIOp needs to be freely available even as are those other standards. This is of particular importance in order to gain enough early adopters and reach a critical mass of usage. Only then can the standard lead to economic benefits for companies using it. [07:11] PeterYim: [consensus] we will adopt the version as re-stated by TillMossakowski (above), subject to final review and tweak by SueEllenWright [07:12] TillMossakowski: action: Michael will try to find the arguments for free availability of the Common Logic ISO standard. [07:20] MichaelGruninger: I will also contact HarryDelugach (who was the editor for Common Logic when it was submitted for a standard) to get his text that argues for the free availability of Common Logic [07:16] PeterYim: Question: are we still pursuing this (free availability issue) with the "moving the work to JTC1" approach [07:18] TillMossakowski: yes, the reason being that in JTC1, there are a number of freely available standards - as opposed to TC37 [07:18] PeterYim: Michael: at yesterday's JTC1/SC32 Krakow meeting, the question of whether SC32 is even the right place for Common Logic was brought up (not that they want to move CL out of there, but then they recognize most members there do not have the expertise) [07:19] MichaelGruninger: I will contact DeniseWarzel (who is in SC32) and ask her opinion on the issue of the best working group for OntoIOp (and Common Logic) [07:28] PeterYim: re: "SC32" - The Common Logic standard work is done in: WG2 (Metadata) under SC32 (Data Interchange) of ISO/IEC JTC1 [07:21] PeterYim: Till: [consensus] we are developing both approaches (stay in TC37, as well as move to JTC1/SC32) in parallel, as discussed and documented in the Madrid Meeting [07:22] TerryLongstreth: DOL is also something of a bridge between ontology as an outgrowth of terminology (i.e tc37) and metadata standards like ISO 11179 (i.e. JTC1/SC32) [07:24] TillMossakowski: we will have the official consultation about free availability in TC37 in parallel with informal discussions among in JTC1 [07:25] PeterYim: == Till: discussing "equivalence of ontologies" - http://interop.cim3.net/forum/ontoiop-wg/2012-10/msg00003.html#nid06 [07:25] TillMossakowski: equivalence of ontologies: I have implemented the proposal discussed last time, see the new version of the working draft http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~till/WD_OntoIOp_current.pdf p.12, p.27, p.40 and p.50 [07:30] TillMossakowski: Michael suggests to have a document collecting all the theorems implicit in the notes of the Working Draft. Some of these are contained in some research papers. [07:31] TillMossakowski: If there is enough new material, this might even be published. [07:32] PeterYim: I have also put a snapshot of the current WD in today's working directory as: http://interop.cim3.net/file/work/OntoIOp/Team_confcall/2012-10-17_team-confcall/WD_OntoIOp_v3-5_20121016a.pdf [07:37] PeterYim: == Till: moving onto "proposal: add circular imports to DOL ..." - http://interop.cim3.net/forum/ontoiop-wg/2012-10/msg00003.html#nid07 [07:36] TillMossakowski: proposal: add circular imports to DOL, with semantics as given by p.31 of http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~okutz/hyperontologies.pdf . [07:41] MichaelGruninger: We will raise the issue of circular imports in Common Logic within the Common Logic mailing list [07:41] PeterYim: Till: we will postpone discussion of this until we get further input from the CL folks [07:42] PeterYim: == Till: discussing "Translations of OWL2 to Common Logic" - http://interop.cim3.net/forum/ontoiop-wg/2012-10/msg00003.html#nid08 [07:41] TillMossakowski: Translations of OWL2 to Common Logic, see http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~till/papers/tools-for-cl.pdf Proposal: add the two translations denoted by SROIQ->CF.Fol and SROIQ->CF.Full in the paper p. 23-26 as official OntoIOp translations. [07:54] TillMossakowski: In a forthcoming revision of Common Logic, numerical quantifiers may be supported directly. Then, the translation of OWL2 to CL.Full should of course use these directly. [07:57] PeterYim: Michael / Till: will bring this to the attention of FabianNeuhaus (who is driving the numerical quantifiers work on the CL team) [08:02] TillMossakowski: There are two translations from OWL2 to CL. We agree to have both translations as normative, but none of them as default. This means that they have always to be used by referring to their names. [08:02] TerryLongstreth: We must clarify our use of the term normative. I'm not sure the meaning intended here is the same as ISO's [08:03] StefanoBorgo: I need to go now, bye [08:03] TillMossakowski: bye, Stefano [08:03] PeterYim: bye, Stefano [08:07] TillMossakowski: I will ask ChristianGalinski whether it is possible to have two different translations from OWL2 to CL in the normative annex. [08:10] TillMossakowski: Another option is to leave out the translations from the standard, and refer to the registry. Then, flaws can be corrected more easily. [08:12] TillMossakowski: Peter: if we can include the translations in the normative annex, we should do this, because they illustrate the whole point that DOL makes, and they also illustrate that there can be more than one translation between two given languages. [08:13] TillMossakowski: there is a tendency to agree with Peter, but we should first clarify the term "normative". [08:15] PeterYim: == Till: continuing with the to-do list review - [08:15] TillMossakowski: http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~till/todos-Madrid2012.txt [08:18] PeterYim: A snapshot of the to-do list (at start of this discussion) is now available as: http://interop.cim3.net/file/work/OntoIOp/Team_confcall/2012-10-17_team-confcall/todos-Madrid2012_snapshot_20121016a.txt [08:20] PeterYim: discussion: 70) specify semantics of module extraction - Till [08:26] PeterYim: Till: discussion: 84) say something about "infrastructure theories", i.e. axiomatizations of one logic in another logic. Providers of ontology language translations MAY also provide these (given that the translation is theoroidal). Note the possible trade-off between readability and theorem proving complexity (as the infrastructure axioms may be complex) - so maybe we should encourage multiple alternative translations to co-exist. ... discussed today [08:29] PeterYim: Till - discussion: 85) maybe say something about ontology languages that support multiple logics (e.g. OWL and its profiles) [08:36] ChristophLange: Re: 85) it's not an OWL-specific issue, but in the _vocabulary_ for the registry it has been fixed already: We are now able to talk about ontology languages and about their logics separately [08:30] PeterYim: Till / Christoph - discussion 88) & 107) [08:37] ChristophLange: re 88) and XML conformance: Now that 66) has already been resolved as "not needed", all "intrusion" into basic ontology languages that we need is giving identifiers to things. In any XML syntax, @xml:id attributes are sufficient for this. [08:36] TillMossakowski: we want to use the comments in ontology languages for a "soft intrusion", e.g. for recording names of axioms and proof goals [08:37] PeterYim: == time for next call Time for OntoIOp team-confcall (n.21) confirmed: Date: Wed 31-Oct-2012 start-time: 7:00am PDT / 10:00 am EDT / 3:00pm CET / 14:00 UTC * ref. world clock - http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=10&day=31&year=2012&hour=7&min=0&sec=0&p1=224 * note that North America will still be on daylight saving time, while Europe will be back on standard time then; we have decided to keep the time for the North American's; therefore, colleagues in Europe should note that the meeting will be starting an hour early next time, i.e. at 3:00pm (instead of 4:00pm.) [08:37] PeterYim: -- session ended: 5:37pm CEST -- --------