chat-transcript_20081211d.txt // Yaron Koren: Testing. PatrickNagel: hi Yaron Koren: Hello! PatrickNagel: I think i'm in the worst timezone 2:15 in the morning over here. PatrickNagel: *drinking coffee* Yaron Koren: Oh yeah, I forgot youre in Shanghai... Yaron Koren: Oops, I just posted that message to the queue, and I don't know how to remove it. PatrickNagel: heh, me neither PatrickNagel: maybe click that hand again or so? Yaron Koren: Ah, there it is, thanks. Yaron Koren: How's Shanghai these days? I'm always reading about it. PatrickNagel: well, it's getting cold now... and it's not so common to have a heating here, so it's not the most pleasant time of the year Yaron Koren: Oh wow, I didn't know that. PatrickNagel: heh, yeah, but you can get used to it... wear a lot of clothes, etc. PatrickNagel: just not used to wearing a jacket inside Yaron Koren: Do all the new buildings being created have central heating, or is it just not something they do? PatrickNagel: i think also new buildings don't get central heating. i mean until a few years ago it was even forbidden to use a heating south of the yangtse river this law doesn't exist anymore, but the people are used to living in the cold for 2-3 months already, and it takes time for them to change their habits anonymous morphed into Markus Krötzsch Markus Krötzsch says hi PatrickNagel: the more wealthy people use floor heatings now and so on Daniel Herzig: Hi PatrickNagel: ok, i'll stop this now Yaron Koren: Ah. Okay, that was good to know, though. Daniel Herzig: we don't have a real heating either... in Palo Alto Yaron Koren: That's what you get for living in such backwards communities! Markus Krötzsch: Anyone on the call yet? Daniel Herzig: hehe Markus Krötzsch: Ah, Max Daniel Herzig: yes I am PatrickNagel: let me try this voip stuff Markus Krötzsch: works well for me PatrickNagel: is there a way to call in via sip? probably not... Markus Krötzsch: This thing costs 20cent per minute! anonymous morphed into ArturoSanchez PatrickNagel: whoa anonymous1 morphed into ChristophLange ChristophLange: hi all anonymous morphed into MaxVoelkel MaxVoelkel: Hello everybody TobiasKuhn: hi everyone! Daniel Herzig: @Markus, did you use the local number to dial in? Markus Krötzsch: yes Markus Krötzsch: but via Skype Daniel Herzig: hmm, maybe the US one is even cheaper Markus Krötzsch: I will try Yaron Koren: Oh, so Skype is working? It wasn't last time I tried, two sessions ago. Daniel Herzig: its working fine for me right now Markus Krötzsch: Ah, I am back. Markus Krötzsch: Using the US number, it's only 1.7 cents per minute! Daniel Herzig: MaxVoelkel: All slides are here: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2008_12_11#nid1PJ0 MaxVoelkel: Thanks to the purple numbers PeterDolog: hi everyone once again anonymous morphed into Frank Olken anonymous1 morphed into Andrew Cowell anonymous1 morphed into baojie anonymous3 morphed into Celeste Plaisance anonymous2 morphed into John Thompson anonymous3 morphed into Guoqian Jiang Guoqian Jiang: Hello, Yaron, Danial and all Yaron Koren: Hello! Guoqian Jiang: nice to have this smw users gathering after last meeting Frank Olken: Hi, this is Frank Olken from Arlington, VA. anonymous morphed into Rick Kiefer anonymous morphed into MichelleRaymond MaxVoelkel: slide 7 anonymous2 morphed into Tom Caruso anonymous morphed into bbc581 HaroldSolbrig: Hello Frank from Arlington VA. MaxVoelkel: Demo-Link: http://korrekt.org/page/Ontolog Daniel Herzig: i can't access snpedia, can you? anonymous3: It's been very slow in the last few weeks; thankfully, I believe that's not a result of SMW. anonymous3: Hey, how did I lose my username? anonymous3 morphed into Yaron Kore Yaron Kore morphed into Yaron Koren HaroldSolbrig: Mayo thinks that ChikiPedia is inappropriate - it is a blocked site Yaron Koren: They're blocking research. MaxVoelkel: Syama - are you in the call? MaxVoelkel: Anonymous - please go to "Settings" and choose a name anonymous1 morphed into Philipp Zaltenbach MaxVoelkel: Philipp, do you have a question? Can you press "*3" on the phone and say it? MaxVoelkel: ... hello? Philipp Zaltenbach: no, i am not the anonymous guy MaxVoelkel: ah, sorry anonymous2 morphed into Martin Becker Markus Krötzsch: The OWL 2 Working Group Wiki is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Working_Group Markus Krötzsch: On this page, you can find links to all current documents detailing this language. Markus Krötzsch: The working group is happy to receive comments on last call documents. Markus Krötzsch: See http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item204 for details. ArturoSanchez: yes Markus Krötzsch agrees with Yaron here, it is not very convenient to speak for 20min without any feedback whatsoever ... anonymous morphed into Jason Zou Markus Krötzsch: The Google Chart API Yaron mentioned is at http://code.google.com/intl/de-DE/apis/chart/ anonymous1 morphed into Liz Pullen Markus Krötzsch: ... it is not part of SMW, since it needs to send your data to Google, which you may not want. Liz Pullen: How do I get out of the Queue?! HaroldSolbrig: Yaron - we can do the XML to Template conversion... HaroldSolbrig: Got a generic XSLT transform to do exactly that. baojie morphed into Jie Bao Guoqian Jiang: Hi, Jie Daniel Hansch: Hi Harold! sounds interesting - you have more info about the xml->forms transformation? ArturoSanchez: feedback ... Markus Krötzsch hears heavy echo bbc581: someone needs to mute by pressing *2 Andrew Cowell: Yaron, just a quick thanks for all your work, especially SemanticForms. MaxVoelkel: ***For the next talks: Please try to keep your times very strict*** Daniel Hansch: ok Markus Krötzsch: Yaron, the XML export you mentioned: wouldn't it be possible to make a result printer that creates a very similar XML export based on semantic data (since you mentioned that RDF is not what you needed).? Markus Krötzsch: Then you would not have to deal with templates. Yaron Koren: Yes, but that might be unnecessary work, if you have templates. Markus Krötzsch: True, but handling templates can introduce additional difficulties. Yaron Koren: Maybe we should take this offline? Markus Krötzsch: Yes, let's not start side chats BruceBray: Which page is he on? HaroldSolbrig: Hello Daniel - I'll e-mail you something later today. ChristophLange: still #2 Markus Krötzsch: You can follow the slides at http://vnc2.cim3.net:5800/ (password "ontolog") BruceBray: that port blocked for me and many others MaxVoelkel: You can also simply download the PDF presentations MaxVoelkel: link: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2008_12_11#nid1PJ0 Daniel Herzig: Can I install any mediawiki extensions on smw+? Daniel Hansch: you can install the halo-extension on top of any mediawiki extension. Daniel Herzig: Does smw+ allows extensions the way the regular smw or mediawiki do? Daniel Hansch: smw+ is intended to be selfcontained and comes with a useful set of extensions. Daniel Hansch: yes - of course. Markus Krötzsch: SMW+ is essentially a "MediaWiki distribution" that bundles related extensions Markus Krötzsch: so it can be customized like any MediaWiki Daniel Hansch: i hope my talk was not too packed. i am happy to assist you with any inquiry Mark Greaves: Daniel, your talk was definitely packed, but it was really a fun tour through SMW+! Daniel Hansch: thanks, Mark Markus Krötzsch: How does this feature relate to SMW's Concepts? Jason Zou: Daniel, I just installed Halo extension yesterday. And I liked it immediately. Good work Daniel Hansch: Technically, there is no relation. Daniel Hansch: Let me ask Philipp how this relates "conceptually". Guoqian Jiang: Daniel, is this simple rule extension available in next release? Markus Krötzsch: But concepts are "derived categories" too: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Concepts Markus Krötzsch: ok, let's do that PeterYim: can you tell us who you are, "bbc581" please? Daniel Hansch: yes - we are planning to have that in the next release 1.5 - as an separate but compatible extension. HaroldSolbrig: How many entities are in the db that you've applied the rules to? Are there issues w/ computational complexity? Daniel Hansch: We have OntoBroker sitting in the backend of SMW and processing the rules. Daniel Hansch: OntoBroker is the powerful reasoning engine out there (according to mass-processing tests). Daniel Hansch: So, in the context of SMW, we did not (yet) reach any limit. Daniel Hansch: But, of course, OntoBroker will choke if your rule base is faulty. Daniel Hansch: Therefore we are planning for a "safety belt" coming with Rules and SMW. (e.g. debugging, unit tests for rules, etc) BruceBray: Ken your voice is very light, can you get closer to your mic? MaxVoelkel: Wow, this transclusion is really cool! Daniel Hansch: Jason: thank you! Is your wiki publically accessible? Yaron Koren: "PSMW" looks exactly like PMW. bbc581 morphed into Chris Mitchell Markus Krötzsch: I wonder whether this modelled OWL is also processed (e.g. in query answering), or if it is just stored. Markus Krötzsch: (which is also a valid goal, of course) Guoqian Jiang: what's the difference between Rabbit and Ace language? PeterYim: note to JieBao - please call out the slide number too, whenever you advance slides (this will help async participants tremendously) Markus Krötzsch: Note that there is also the ACE-Wiki project, using ACE as the basis for a semantic wiki. PeterYim: we're on slide#7 now TobiasKuhn: Rabbit is designed specifically for OWL. ACE is a general purpose controlled natural language that is more expressive. A subset of ACE can be mapped to OWL. Yaron Koren: This isn't in response to anything, but it seems like the difference between the Jie/RPI's rules/modeling approach and Ontoprise's approach is that the former is structured as semantic properties, while the latter has its own database tables, if I understand things correctly. TobiasKuhn: People interested in controlled natural languages should also have a look at AceWiki: http://attempto.ifi.uzh.ch/acewiki/ Guoqian Jiang: hi, Tobias Markus Krötzsch: Re Yaron: I think RPI's approach is about *meta modelling*, i.e. storing and editing rules and OWL in a semantic wiki, while Ontoprise's approach is to augment the data of the wiki using rules as additional *modelling* feature. PeterYim: @YaronKoren - ref your "PSMW" looks exactly like PMW - Yes, PMW is MW with pmwx installed ... PSMW is SMW with pmwx installed TobiasKuhn: hi, Guoqian! TobiasKuhn: @JieBao: is this system that you describe available somehow? online or as a download? Yaron Koren: Peter - yes, but how is it different from PMW with any other set of extensions installed? Stephen Larson: Jie Bao.. very nice presentation. Is the code behind your presentation open source / available somewhere? perhaps i have missed the link but i did not see it. Jie Bao: our work are mainly wiki templates, and they are available at the example links Philipp Zaltenbach: @Jie: what reasoner are you using for doing inferencing? TobiasKuhn: ... or can you give a pointer to a publication that discusses this system? ChristophLange: @Markus, @Jie, could you explain the difference between the way the "concept modeling" extension creates OWL and does reasoning, and the default SMW way? Markus Krötzsch: I don not know the concept modelling extensions. SMW just follows the OWL semantics. Markus Krötzsch: (for the features it supports) EdDodds: Does anyone interact with any semantic efforts in the Joomla or Drupal communities? just curious... Daniel Herzig: @Peter YIM: could you show the slides on full screen? Jie Bao: @TobiasKuhn: it is on http://tw.rpi.edu/dev/cnl MaxVoelkel: +++ NEWS: We just got notification that a fourth workshop on semantic wikis has been accepted at ESWC2009. Find all relevant links (and also links to *the* mailing list for the semantic wiki community) at http://semwiki.org +++ PeterYim: sorry, Daniel Markus Krötzsch: The demo link in Peter's talk is: http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Special:ATWSpecialSearch ChristophLange: @MaxVoelkel: nice Jie Bao: @Stephen Larson: links are on the slides ChristophLange: @JieBao: Is it the case that your extension is just a user-friendly frontend to SMW's OWL support, or is it different? Jie Bao: @Philipp Zaltenbach: inference is encoded in semantic template so we do not use an external reasoner Markus Krötzsch: @Jie Bao: But how can this inference be complete? Markus Krötzsch: (as templates are computationally so much weaker than OWL) Guoqian Jiang: testing MaxVoelkel: http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Special:ATWSpecialSearch Jie Bao: @ChristophLange: the OWL extension is so far just an editor and controlled natural language interface. We haven't done inference about OWL yet, but it is in the plan. Yaron Koren: This "Ask the Wiki" extension is pretty neat. Daniel Herzig: Thanks ChristophLange: @Daniel/Peter: I'd suggest that you display the original query string on the "step 2" page as well Daniel Hansch: very very nice!! congrats! Yaron Koren: I hope it gets released soon! PatrickNagel: me too Jie Bao: @Markus Krtzsch: I admit it is not complete Markus Krötzsch: @Jie Bao: OK, that clarifies things for me. It would be very difficult to provide complete OWL+rules reasoning (not just in a wiki). ChristophLange: @Jie, @Markus: thanks, I understood KenBaclawski: @YaronKoren: The intention is to make it look exactly like SMW with PMWX installed. However, RDF statements can now have a subject that has finer granularity than just a page. This allows finer granularity for queries and reasoning. Chris Mitchell: Question for Yaron Koren RE: Semantic Forms: What scripting language is used for developing the form template via the "Editing Form:Event" example? Maybe Groovy, Velocity or simple wiki syntax? Yaron Koren: Ken: was that shown in the slides? MaxVoelkel: Chris, are you in the call? MaxVoelkel: Can you un-mute and talk? Chris Mitchell: yes... thank you Markus Krötzsch: It is described on this page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms#Defining_forms Daniel Hansch: Ontoprise is logging off - thank you very much for organising this session! greetings, daniel and philipp. ChristophLange: thanks for your cool presentations! MaxVoelkel: Merry X-Mas to ontoprise! Guoqian Jiang: thanks, daniel MaxVoelkel: ... if there are further questions, just raise your hands PatrickNagel: i'm leaving, too. thanks a lot for the great talks and the well organised event! ChristophLange: @MaxVoelkel: but isn't your purple/semantics idea quite similar to template transclusion in SMW? If you include 20 templates into a single page, then the resulting page is similar to a page with 20 purple numbers (or say "fragment IDs") -- so the challenge is IMHO to provide an adequate GUI for accessing annotations of such fragments MaxVoelkel: Syama? PeterYim: pwmx provides *addressibility* not semantics ... it is meant to work with and complement the other semantic tools anonymous2: Question for everyone: Has anyone considered integration with the Nepomuk Semantic Desktop? ChristophLange: @anonymous2: Who are you? Markus Krötzsch: @anonymous2: that would be a nice project, but I am not aware of anyone pursuing this actively now. Markus Krötzsch: ... you can ask this question to Max, he is involved in Nepomuk Jie Bao: @anonymous2: is there is demo available for Nepomuk? Jie Bao: (or screen shots?) anonymous2: Please excuse me for not speaking vocally... riding noisy public transit ChristophLange: KDE 4 Markus Krötzsch: @Jie: Nepomuk is available for download, and part of KDE MaxVoelkel: Integration of what exactly? anonymous2: APIs and such for data ChristophLange: maybe a wiki where you can annotate/import local files? anonymous2: Thank you very much. This has answered my question just fine. anonymous2: I am very interested in the XWiki Help Desk TobiasKuhn: bye everone! it was a very interesting session! Markus Krötzsch says good bye to everyone! anonymous2: Would you believe I am doing all of this from my mobile phone? MaxVoelkel: maybe we can beek the chat room open MaxVoelkel: for some while to not kill all discussions EdDodds: @PeterYim I've posted the url to your PN presentation in the Drupal semantic web developers group. We'll see if that sparks any interest... PeterYim: Great session ... thanks, everyone ... bibi! //